Curse

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Mar 25, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Listed below are various reference threads that are related to this topic:

(Zorian Direspell) Fixing Alliance Battles
(LaserLight) Honor/Infamy - Repairing 12v12 Battles
(Shut Your Mouth) Penalizing the (spies) leaver in all PvP areas
(twicky_kid) 12v12 needs to be reworked
(Crisis54) Time ban on leavers (re-written)
(Jag Mountaintop) Thoughts on Alliance Battles so far
(Theus) Regarding Alliance Battles.
(Tuoba Hturt Eht) Send in replacements for the alliance battles
(TRUEgamer) Petition for leaving-a-battle penalties
(Albas) Solution for 12v12 Game Length Problem

A new poll,
People who:
agree (7)
================
Tuoba Hturt Eht, kryshnysh, Numa Pompilius, Chris Blackstar, qwe4rty, King Symeon, mariano

disagree (0)
================

that something(non-punishing, non-penalty method) must be done to fix this issue of rage quiters in 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles.

The old poll,
People who:
agree (75)
========================
Tuoba Hturt Eht, Theus, Mandy Memory, TRUEgamer, Cymrix, TheYellowKid, storm of daeth, Zackile Greenbirth, Aarroe of Gilgamesh, Asrial, Angelus of Silence, ellamonster32, Lexar, Diablo™, Ggraphix, mark3h, ibex333, Antigd, The Purple Pants Guy, Kaly Mason, sedgewick, jm_jazzy, Misa, angshuman, nitrile, Mai, d4nowar, Kali Ma, NevynZeddicus, Acadia, Guillaume De Sonoma, Medion, Mentalmdc, lama_lord36, Skuld, Qcho, King Symeon, SziP, Kazmax, Aera, nothing special, pyrosamurai, zoozoc, Minus Sign, bulletsmile, Raxxman, Crisis54, DFrost, heavy metal rules, Sakashi, Eet GnomeSmasher, insecticide, calamitykell, Englishkid, Rilder, sLiceR, Saborath Gilgalad, Pillz_veritas, Reks, antialias02, pappayaponta, KESKI, jtchans, Kakumei, theninja12, Bane of Mortality, CartmanPT, Numa Pompilius, qwe4rty, Kybos, ...Zakk..., Karmaniac, craz888, Pandora's box, Wretchman Drake

do not agree: (9)
========================
Lady Lorwinia, Argen, Sphinx2k, DJ Josh, Thom, fallot, PieXags, derrtyboy69, mariano

that Alliance Battles deserters should be punished:

There are now two polls:
(new) 1. Do or not do something about the issue of rage quiting mofos
(old) 2. Punish or not punish the rage quiting mofos

Vote away!
Discuss!
Review and comment on the proposed ideas!
Contribute new ideas!
Rwaaaaaaaaaaaar!

Many people have provided feedback regarding this issue, much appreciated.
Cheers mates.

The following is a list of possible solutions in an attempt to "fix" this issue of rage quiters in the 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles.
Please review and comment.

Appendix
=============
List of proposed ideas in an attempt to fix this issue of "RAGE" quiters:

1. Allow human players as replacements
- Allow single player to enter mission, these will act as replacements for the quiters who quit while the battle is still going on
- Allow teams of 4 to join in teams who has 4 or more quiters
(However, I think the network code of Guild Wars does not allow this, I could be wrong however.
(Probably a bad idea, as pointed out by King Symeon)
(Hence, disregard this idea)

2. Allow henchies as replacements (agreed by Sphinx2k)
- replace them rage quiters with henchies (by DakAtak, fiery)
How to implement? Suggested method: (By King Symeon)
- when rage quiting players leave
- resurrection countdown time is up
- empty slots will be filled in with henchmen.
(This would be most approriate I guess)

3. PUNISH THE RAGE QUITING MOFOS!!!
(A) (This idea will probably be used together with Sakashi's idea)
In the event that a player deserts the luxon vs kurschick battle, he will suffer a faction penalty(luxon or kurschick):
- 1,000 faction(luxon or kursick)

This 1,000 faction will be refunded if the following conditions are satisfied:
- he quits the battle, and logs out completely within 5 minutes
- the total logged out time is at least 5 minutes
(5 minutes as suggested by King Symeon)
(The "at least an hour" seems to be too long as many people has pointed out)
(I have changed the "an hour" to "5 minutes", please review and comment)

This 1,000 faction will be gone for good if:
- the player quits the battle, and remains in game, without logging off

No faction penalty at all if:
- The quit is a result of technical issues Err 007, Err 058 etc

Negative factions(luxon or kusick) can be achieved, should this happen, the player is denied from participating in alliance battles, until faction(luxon or kusick) is positive again.

(B) (Suggested by Sakashi)
Punish the "obvious" rage quiters, spare the innocent
Sakashi:
"can't make the punishment too immediate incase it was actually an accident or emergency. HOWEVER! IF the persons actions are repeated again..... and again..... its obvious they are idiots who SHOULD be punished.
No-one is going to ACCIDENTLY
- have multiple powercuts
- need to phone for an ambulance every match

And if its a computer problem, fix it before jumping straight back into GW. It's not impossible to seperate the two categories."

(The below concept inspired by Sakashi)
Number of Alliance Battle quits within the hour:
1 : Nothing
2 : 1st Warning Message
(Luxon/Kurzick guy comes find you, tells you not to desert their battles again, stating that they don't like deserters.)
3 : 2nd Warning Message
(Luxon/Kurzick comes find you again, telling you if you have personal issues, you should not participate in their battles unless your personal issues are resolved, they really do not like people deserting their battles.)
4 : Proposed idea (A) kicks in, 1,000 faction penalty (Luxon/Kurzick guy comes find you again, stating that they are very angry that you deserted their battles.

4. Denied entry into Alliance Battles
- Make it so that they cant rejoin a battle untill the one they left is over. That way they might as well have stayed (by Lexar)

5. Increase the rewards for the players who did not quit
(suggested by Sagius Truthbarron)
(A)
I think one way to "punish" the quitters, (or imo give them an incentive to stay) is to have the points they would have won divided up among the people that stayed to the end.

For example:
Luxons have 5 people that quit.
Luxons lose 200 to 500. 200 points go to the ones that did not quit.
there is a total of 1000 points that are "lost". Take that 1000 points and divide it up to the group that stayed.

No "real" punishment, and it is an incentive to stick it out. Also it "rewards" the ones that stayed.
(By Sverige614)

(B)
(actually this one resembles Sverige614's idea)
I've got a simple solution to the leavers - reward those who stay behind (as now), but reward them based upon the number of people left in the team:

During the FPE, the victory bonus on faction has been a 1.5 multiplier - first to 500, each member of the team gets 750.
Losing team members get 1xpoints.

So, total points pool on a full 12 player victorious team is 9000 (12x1.5x500)

Now, if you said - thats the total points pool, and it will be split evenly depending upon the number of people left in the team at the end (and this works for both winning and losing team), then suddenly, if you quit out becuase you team was down to 6 players, and you had 250 points on the board just before it was about to end, you'd be missing out on 500 faction. (250*12/6)

More than that, by dropping out you'd be gifting the remaining players on your team your share of the pot, so they'd get 600 faction rather than 500.
(250*12/5)

Suddenly you've given a people a huge competitive dissincentive to quit - other people get rewarded for you dropping out - they'll get 15k armour sooner.
(by brokenkey)

Note:
(A) and (B) are actually the same thing, just described differently by different people.

6. Accelerated victory (by Jag Mountaintop)
- if one side holds all 7 control points
- continuously for 1 or 2 minutes
(Jag Mountaintop: "Call it a mercy rule. I have seen a team come back from a 5-2 deficit, but I have yet to see a team even take a single control point after losing all 7.")

7. Losing Side's Last Resort (by Jag Mountaintop)
- if one team gains all 7 control points,
- losing side gets a spawn of 6-8 level 28 NPCs
- that charge out from the base camp to attack the nearest two control points.
(Jag Mountaintop: "That should keep the winners hopping for a while.")

8. Reduce overall score required (by Jag Mountaintop)
- reduce the overall score required
- to say 400 or 350
(Jag Mountaintop: "this would reduce the faction gain, of course")

9. Accelerate score gaining rate (by Jag Mountaintop)
- increase the rate at which the score ticks.
- more score gained if the strategic point is captured for longer period of time
perhaps:
if a strategic control point is secured for at least
- 1 minute, 2 points
- 2 minutes, 4 points
- 3 minutes, 8 points
gained, from that strategic control point, during the score ticks interval

(Jag Mountaintop: "The problem with the current system is that when one side gives up, it can take up to 5 minutes for the game to finish, even though the result is not in doubt. Unfortunately, this actually encourages deserting, since you can make faction per hour by only sticking around on winning teams.)

10. Implement a Time Ban for ALL PvP (By Crisis54)
- If you leave DURING the match
- your account would be on a time ban for ALL pvp
- you wouldn't be able to pvp for
- let's say, 5 minutes.
- time ban continue to tick when not logged on

Crisis54:
"So if your computer crashes or disconnects or whatever, the time ban would still be ticking even if you aren't logged on. This is good for people who have to leave or whatever. As for disconnects, I don't think 5 minutes is that harsh.

This would curb all the rage quitters out there and hopefully make a more enjoyable experience for the majority of players."

11. Losing's side final humilation (by Albas)
- when one team secured all 7 strategic points
- base defenders no longer use "Base Defense" skill
- players able to enter the base area
- to kill an NPC that would be guarding the base
(which would also have the Base Defense skill anyways, preventing spawn camping and teleporting assassins).
This NPC (Luxon/Kurzick Commander) is
- not affected by EOE
- have lots of health

Winning team gets 1000 factions for killing this NPC as a "decisive" victory.
If for some reason the defending team captures a flag, all the base defenders and this NPC would regain their "Base Defense" skill and would nuke everyone within the base.

12. Map Travel Disabled while in mission (by mariano)
- map travel is disabled when a player is in a mission with other players
- would apply to all missions either PvE or PvP
- apply too to the Arenas, to GvG, and to HA

If a player wants or needs to leave during a mission, her will have to log-off. But, this is, I think, is quite reasonable.

Notice again that "Disable map travel during missions" is a suggestion for all kind of missions in the game!

13. A combination of several of the above mentioned proposed ideas
(A)
(by Mandy Memory)
2. Allow henchies as replacements
5. Increase the rewards for the players who did not quit

(B)
(by Falcon213)
- each remaining player recieves +25 faction for each quiter
4. Denied entry into Alliance Battles

(C)
(by MasterDinadan)
2. Allow henchies as replacements
4. Denied entry into Alliance Battles
5. Increase the rewards for the players who did not quit

My Thoughts:
As I would really like to see some sort of penalty for the rage quiters, but I doubt that would happen, ever. Due to many reasons being:
- Internet connection issues
- PC crashes
- Timed out
- Guild Wars server issues
- etc

What I hope to see is that, ANET will implement some kind of new feature into these 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles, so that in the event that rage quiters decide to quit, the overall gaming experience for the remaining players is not drastically ruined.

The counting of the signature votes can be taken as a reference about what the community thinks about the rage quiting issue in the 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles.

At the moment, it appears that many people would want to see rage quiters punished. I believe this can be interpreted as the Guild Wars gaming community is not happy about the huge amount of rage quiters ruining their 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles gaming experience.

Hence, hopefully, we will see some sort of henchies replacement regarding this rage quiters issue in 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles when Guild Wars: Factions is released on 28th April 2006.

My 12 vs 12 Alliance Battle gaming experience:
I've been in a match in which a 12 vs 12 quickly became a Luxon 9 vs Kurzick 10(I'm on this team, luck me

), everyone still fought furiously. The strategic control points were at 3 : 3

The scores were quite evenly matched, however the Luxons started to lose more strategic points, and it became a 0:7 if I recalled correctly, it was then the scores became 400+ : 300+ , one more quiter for the Luxon, thus 8 Luxon vs 10 Kurzick

However, before the end game of almost 500 points, like 450+ I think, one necro or a couple, together with the rest of the Luxons, charged the Dragon Hatchling strategic control point with hordes of undead minions, our Dragon was already dead so they captured that point very easily.

But it was too late since our points was reaching 500.
Had there been no rage quiters in that match, things would be much different.

The Purple Pants Guy · Mar 25, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Yes! Punish them!

Kaly Mason · Mar 25, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Yes. Punish them.

Maedhros · Mar 25, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Bah maybe 1000 factions is a little harsh but i agree with punishing them... But! Hey check! if the connection get off like me in dialup internet, it was not voluntary so ? if these cases or technicals difficulties? should lagging or bugs be punished? if so they would lose many players of course and many persons who could have played...
like the other solution i do not totally agree with the faction loss as i got dialup internet and i lagg off frquently. So they could not join another battle before the one they left could fiinish....i think its a good idea but? there is a but because some people really NEEDS to quit... they NEED to go or do something...as best solution it could just be no punishment at all or you could black list them for a while...
/off topic they should do more space for ignore list /off topic
Actually it is reaaaallllyyy complicated...

~Maedhros

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Mar 25, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedhros

there is a but because some people really NEEDS to quit... they NEED to go or do something...

In reply to this:

Quote:

This 1,000 faction will be refunded if the following conditions are satisfied:
- he quits the battle, and logs out completely
- the total logged out time is at least an hour

As for internet connection failure, I am truly sorry, I do not know how to make that work out.

If disconnects are to be allowed, then the RAGE quiters will just resort to pulling the plug of their modems to quit.

Lord Snow · Mar 25, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maedhros

Bah maybe 1000 factions is a little harsh but i agree with punishing them... But! Hey check! if the connection get off like me in dialup internet, it was not voluntary so ? if these cases or technicals difficulties? should lagging or bugs be punished? if so they would lose many players of course and many persons who could have played...
like the other solution i do not totally agree with the faction loss as i got dialup internet and i lagg off frquently. So they could not join another battle before the one they left could fiinish....i think its a good idea but? there is a but because some people really NEEDS to quit... they NEED to go or do something...as best solution it could just be no punishment at all or you could black list them for a while...
/off topic they should do more space for ignore list /off topic
Actually it is reaaaallllyyy complicated...

~Maedhros

The thing is, as harsh as it may seem, if you JOIN an Alliance battle, it's like joining a HA team or a PvE mission. You're making a commitment to do that mission/quest/job with them.

If your network messes up, modem fries or there's a power failure; sure, it's not really your fault but at the same time, the people you left behind are forced to DEAL with the negative consequences of your absence.

I just think that if you join a big group to do just about anything, you're making a commitment and a promise. If you can't hold up your end of the bargain for whatever reason, be it a natural cause or just plain bad timing and you get called away, you deserve SOME sort of penalty.

Yes, it does seem horribly unfair for those with bad network connections, but if you're doubtful of your ability to BE there for the duration of the mission/quest/job, why are you there? If you're playing and you NEED to quit or NEED to go do something, then the other players should be given some sort of compensation for THEIR time lost if they lose the mission because you didn't set aside enough time to play. And as not everyone is a paragon of virtue and infinite grace...penalizing the person that left fits me just fine.

Honestly man...I know it seems unfair, but how do you think the people you leave behind feel when they're forced to go on, short one human player?

While I'm not one to say that people that leave Alliance battles should be PUNISHED, I am in favor of implenting some form of penalty for it.

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 25, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I think it would probably better to reward people for staying in more battles. Even if they do lose.

Otherwise, hang-'em-high.

Kali Ma · Mar 25, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

/signed

There needs to be some form of discouragement, however benign it is.

Acadia · Mar 25, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

/signed

We need to do something to curb the quitters

Argen · Mar 25, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

I do agree. I think that rage-quitters should be punished. Especially in 12x12, 8x8, CA, RA, GvG, HoH, or Pve. I think that they should be treated like scammers and banned for one week.

UMMMM... wait no. Though, I do get irritated when someone leaves the group, I think punishing people will have a very bad effect. I don't rage quit, but I have had a couple of cases when I had to leave the in a hurry.

First time was when the power went and the second time was when I got called away by a close death. I would honestly say that I'd be annoyed enough to stop play permanently. At the very least, I'd probably stop purchasing expansions. And since I'm not paying a monthly fee... its not like I'm out anything major.

Consider EQ2, you lose stuff if you die, but don't lose anything if you leave the game. Punishing people with semi real consequences such as not being able to play a portion of the game is gonna end annoying people, or imagine getting the x,000 faction points and than having it stripped away after your PC lags out.

Will it also effect someone that gets a GW error, imagine the rollback... would everyone involved get penalized?

Additionally, when will the timer to leave kick out. If its PvE, will it be after the entire party is at 60% DP, will it apply in GvG matches where you are completely outclassed and die 4 times, not gonna get res'd... Do you leave? Does the 1st person to leave get penalized or is it everyone once the mission has started? Where exactly is the beginning and the end? I.E. The rage quit chain... 1 guy Rage Quits, the next guy leaves, than so on and so forth... where is the rule that dictates who is guilty?

I can't affirm this because I'm thinking that any punishments would only cause the player base to erode. Honestly, at 27, if I get punished by my entertainment... ummm no. I played football long enough

Not signed

Guillaume De Sonoma · Mar 25, 2006, 08:39 AM // 08:39

/signed

Medion · Mar 25, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

It's really bad, as soon as one side is starting to lose, in every match I fought, the losing party at least had 4 leavers.

/signed!

@Sagius: They get faction and fun as a reward, what would you give them? (btw, not many seem to know that when you lose, you actually get faction also)

Mentalmdc · Mar 25, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Punish
/signed

lama_lord36 · Mar 25, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Punish!!!!!

/signed

DJ Josh · Mar 25, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

a.net stated long ago that no punishment system will be put in place because they will not punish people who have no choice(emergency/disconnection).

TheYellowKid · Mar 25, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

/signed

ive read the comments and thinking about it there should be a penalty but it would need to be properly implemented and imo it should only apply to alliance battles because in general one person leavin in PvE doesnt start a chin reaction, GvG can be punished by the guild if they see fit and ive had many times someones had to go for various reason (but sometimes they knew they were going to have to leave so they prob shouldnt have joined) and these things happened in prophecies and there wasnt threads on it afaik so it shows that its the new features in factions thats causing the most grief.

im gonna play again today and see how it goes maybe it will have lessened because last nite i was in a 12 that lost but no one left (surprised the hell out of me lol) so far

Played: 8 games
RageQuit Endings: 4 games

edit: maybe the first 4 quitters should be penalized otherwise when it gets to a stage of 12 v 4 u would be stuck in the game not being able to do anything until the other team won

Skuld · Mar 25, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Signed!

Qcho · Mar 25, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

/signed

Lexar · Mar 25, 2006, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Signed.

I don't think we will see a change this week-end, but seeing as how everyone thinks very highly of this, I'm confident that they will put something in.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Mar 25, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

To those who signed, I thank you.

To those two who disagreed, did they even read what I proposed at all?
The numbers are just a figure which can be adjusted to see fit.

In the event that a player deserts the luxon vs kurschick battle, he will suffer a faction penalty(luxon or kurschick):
- 1,000 faction(luxon or kursick)

Quote:

a.net stated long ago that no punishment system will be put in place because they will not punish people who have no choice(emergency/disconnection).

Regarding emergency, read:
This 1,000 faction will be refunded if the following conditions are satisfied:
- he quits the battle, and logs out completely
- the total logged out time is at least an hour

The point is, if he really got to go, this would mean he would not be playing Guild Wars for the time being, so if this is the case, then the leave is acceptable, hence no penalty.

As for internet disconnections, any rage quiter can choose to pull the cable of the modem, and call it a "disconnect". I'll say, if you have a crappy internet connection, improve it, go play PvE with henchies, or don't play Guild Wars until your connection gets better.
(It happens here in my country, there are times when the international link to America is screwed, and my connection to Guild Wars server will be very laggy. At those times, I log on, visit random arenas, play one round, then decided that it is too laggy for me to continue, I quit the game after the 1st battle has completed.)

This 1,000 faction will be gone for good if:
- the player quits the battle, and remains in game, without logging off
Look, if the guy quits the Alliance Battle, and still remains in the game, still playing Guild Wars. I would say the factions(luxon/kurzick) penalty is well deserved.

Luxon/Kurzick dude:
"You said you would fight for us(luxon/kurzick), but you deserted the battle before it even ended? Outrageous! You disgust us! We look down upon such actions! If you continue to desert our battles, we will not need your help in our battles again!"

Negative factions(luxon or kusick) can be achieved, should this happen, the player is denied from participating in alliance battles, until faction(luxon or kusick) is positive again.

Common Sense:
You pledged yourself to fight battles for the Luxon/Kurzick, I say they have every right to be pissed if you desert the battles before it ends.